(work in progress)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/11/what-does-ariya-savaka-and-sekha.html
ššwhat does ariya savaka and sekha actually mean?
summary
ariya = noble. Can be referring to any of the 4 attainments of stream entry, once returner, or non-returner, or arahant.
ariya-savaka = noble one's disciple. One who hears/learns the teachings of a noble one, but is not necessarily a noble one themself.
LBT Commentary claims ariya-savaka (in all contexts) is at least a stream-enterer.
a-sekha = an arahant who no longer needs training of a trainee (sekha), since they are not being liable to rebirth (SN 48.53), and they have direct experience with 5indriya resulting in the culmination of that.
sekha = a trainee who has attained at least stream entry, once returner, or non-returner, but is not yet an arahant. (Proof : The distinction between sekha and asekha with regard to the five faculties as given in SN 48:53 is identical to the distinction between the stream enterer and the arahant as given in SN 48:3 and SN 48:4.)
reference:
pts page links to modern pali suttas
If you search that page for "sekh", it produces 7 finds of sutta titles with 'sekh' in there.
a forum thread showing some commentary glosses saying ariya-savaka is at least a stream enterer.
grammatically, both readings of ariya-savaka are valid.
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=31703
certainty:
ariya savaka (noble one's disciple): one who is at the minimum a hearer/learner of Dharma teachings from a noble one (ariya). This interpretation works everywhere in the suttas if you plug that definition in.
sekha (trainee):
* from AN 5.1 they have 3 of the 5 bala, with sati and samadhi removed and replaced with hiri and ottappa.
* SN 48.53 they are a trainee if they have at least faith in 4 noble truths, and that there are no other teachers whose teachings match or exceed the Buddha's in accuracy or harmony with truth of reality. They know (paƱƱÄya ca ativijjha passati.) that the 5 bala are the means to realize truth, but have not directly realized that result through meditation experience yet.
a-sekha (not a trainee, one who has completed training):
* SN 48.53 not being liable to rebirth, and they have direct experience with 5indriya resulting in the culimination of that.
Yaį¹
gatikÄni yaį¹paramÄni yaį¹phalÄni yaį¹pariyosÄnÄni. KÄyena ca phusitvÄ viharati;
uncertainty:
ariya savaka: noble one's disciple.
Theravada commentary seems to say ariya savaka is not just a noble one's disciple, but is themself a noble one, one who has at minimum reached the path (or fruit?) of stream entry.
100 – commentary
Where's the sutta proof? If you plug in the definition "noble one's disciple" everywhere, it works, but "noble disciple" often seems overqualified, unnecessary, or unjustified.
For example, right livelihood: miccha ajiva pahaya. samma ajivena jivitam kappeti. An ariya savaka abandoned wrong livelihood, and takes up right livelihood.
Why would you need to be a stream enterer to do that? Plenty of ordinary people can do that.
sekha (trainee):
sekha: any serious monastic or lay person trying to attain full arahantship? Must be at least stream enterer? (B. Bodhi translates this as 'disciple in higher training')
my doubts about sekha being stream enterer
MN 152 especially makes me doubt ariya status of sekha:
why would a stream enterer do this when he has some samadhi but just not mastered?
shouldn't he be doing the same practice as the ariya with developed faculties?
2nd type: trainee
KathaƱcÄnanda, sekho hoti pÄį¹ipado?
"And how is one a person in training, someone following the way?
IdhÄnanda, bhikkhuno cakkhunÄ rÅ«paį¹ disvÄ uppajjati manÄpaį¹, uppajjati amanÄpaį¹, uppajjati manÄpÄmanÄpaį¹.
There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable.
So tena uppannena manÄpena
He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing...
uppannena amanÄpena
disagreeable thing...
uppannena manÄpÄmanÄpena aį¹į¹Ä«yati harÄyati jigucchati.
agreeable & disagreeable thing.
Sotena saddaį¹ sutvÄ ā¦ pe ā¦
"When hearing a sound with the ear...
forum discussion
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=652859#p652859
frank k wrote: āThu Nov 04, 2021 9:03 am
sekha: any serious monastic or lay person trying to attain full arahantship? Must be at least stream enterer? (B. Bodhi translates this as 'disciple in higher training')
Ven. Dhammanando:
In the Suttas asekhas are arahants and sekhas are ariyasÄvakas but not yet arahants. This can be seen from what's predicated of the two persons in various Suttas in the Indriya Samyutta, e.g., the Sekhasutta, SN 48:53
There is, however, another (much less common) sense of sekha, found in the Vinaya's third pÄtidesanÄ«ya rule:
There are families designated as in training. Should any bhikkhu, not being ill, uninvited beforehand, chew or consume staple or non-staple food, having received it himself at the homes of families designated as in training, he is to acknowledge it: āFriends, I have committed a blameworthy, unsuitable act that ought to be acknowledged. I acknowledge it.ā
The term in training (sekha) is usually used to refer to anyone who has attained at least the first noble path but has yet to become an arahant. Here, though, the Vibhaį¹
ga uses it to refer to any family whose faith is increasing but whose wealth is decreasing—i.e., a family whose faith is so strong that they become generous to the point of suffering financially. In cases such as these, the Community may, as a formal transaction, declare them as families in training so as to protect them with this rule from bhikkhus who might abuse their generosity.
(Ven. Thanissaro, BMC I ch. 9)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0025.html
I asked the question to Ven. Thanissaro
AT: (Ajahn Thanissaro)
No, sekha doesnāt mean at least an ariya savaka. It means anything from a stream-entered through a non-returner.
Frank:
where did you get sekha must be at least a stream enterer?
I'm as uncertain of that as I am that an ariya savaka must be a stream enterer.
AT: (Ajahn Thanissaro):
SN 48:53 read in conjunction with MN 48.
frank:
AN 5.1 has lower requirement for sekha, they have panna but no samadhi, whereas SN 48.53 they have all 5 indriya
AN 5.1 has lower requirement for sekha, they have panna but no samadhi, whereas SN 48.53 they have all 5 indriya.
MN 48 second factor of stream entry says
(2. Does using noble view get you samatha and nirvana? )
Puna caparaį¹, bhikkhave, ariyasÄvako iti paį¹isaƱcikkhati:
Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects:
āimaį¹ nu kho ahaį¹ diį¹į¹hiį¹ Äsevanto bhÄvento bahulÄ«karonto labhÄmi paccattaį¹ samathaį¹, labhÄmi paccattaį¹ nibbutināti?
āWhen I develop, cultivate, and make much of this view, do I personally gain serenity and quenching?ā
So evaį¹ pajÄnÄti:
They understand:
āimaį¹ kho ahaį¹ diį¹į¹hiį¹ Äsevanto bhÄvento bahulÄ«karonto labhÄmi paccattaį¹ samathaį¹, labhÄmi paccattaį¹ nibbutināti.
āWhen I develop, cultivate, and make much of this view, I personally gain serenity and quenching.ā
Idamassa dutiyaį¹ ƱÄį¹aį¹ adhigataį¹ hoti ariyaį¹ lokuttaraį¹ asÄdhÄraį¹aį¹ puthujjanehi. (2)
This is their second knowledge ā¦
that says to me they have gotten at least a brief glimpse of nirvana.
AN 5.1 sekha has no samadhi bala, so how can they glimpse nirvana and fulfill that samatha?
AT: (Ajahn Thanissaro):
1) The standard lists of the characteristics of a stream enterer never
include concentration as one of the members of the list, even though SN
55:5 states that the stream consists of all eight factors of the noble
path, including right concentration, and MN 48 includes, as part of its
description of the stream enterer, enough tranquility to experience
unbinding.
The clue to understanding this discrepancy lies in AN 3:87, which
states that the stream enterer is wholly accomplished in virtue, but
only moderately accomplished in concentration and discernment. In other
words, just because the lists donāt include concentration doesnāt mean
that the stream enterer has no concentration at all. It just means that
it hasnāt been fully mastered. The stream enterer has tasted enough of
at least the first jhana to have gained an experience of unbinding. The
same can be assumed with the list in AN 5:1. It doesnāt give an
exhaustive list of the sekhaās characteristics, just five of the
prominent ones. When SN 48:53 states that the learner has seen, as they
have come to be, the four noble truths, that implies that he/she has
seen enough of all the factors of the noble eightfold path to have had
at least a glimpse of the third noble truth, like the stream enterer in
MN 48 who personally obtains serenity and unbinding.
2) The distinction between sekha and asekha with regard to the five
faculties as given in SN 48:53 is identical to the distinction between
the stream enterer and the arahant as given in SN 48:3 and SN 48:4.
These are probably the clearest passages showing that the sekha must be
at least a stream enterer.
With best wishes,
Ajaan Geoff
Misc. Notes
Iti 82 shows a newly ordained monk would already be a stream enterer 'ariya savaka', which is clearly wrong.
šš collection of notes on KN Iti 82